Dollhouse

Joss Whedon on ’Dollhouse’s’ renewal chances, that missing episode, ’Dr. Horrible’ and more

As you know if you read this piece, I now consider "Dollhouse" to be must-see viewing. The last few episodes of the Fox drama have been quite compelling, but the show’s return for a second season is in doubt.

It feels like deja vu all over again — a Fox show created by Joss Whedon is in danger of cancellation. But as far as Whedon himself is concerned, the script that some fans are writing — about an evil network crushing Whedon’s vision — is itself in need of revision.

The process of birthing the show was rough, he said, because its central concept, which revolves around operatives whose minds are given mental implants for specific missions, is "a hard, hard premise. The premise kept me up at night long before I got a network note," he said in a Monday interview in the lobby of his Chicago hotel. (He had come to Chicago to appear in a live version of the radio show "This American Life"; there’s more on that here.)

And though there has been a kerfuffle over Fox not wanting to air the show’s thirteenth episode — look here for more on that development — Whedon says there’s a chance, albeit a slim one, that it may be available on TV, not just on DVD.

That may hinge on whether "Dollhouse," which has ripened into a poignant and twisted meditation on identity, memory and exploitation, will come back for another season. The show has been ratings-challenged, but it’s done well via other platforms (it’s especially popular with DVR users), so there’s a chance that it could return.

"I assumed it was dead in the water because the network was refusing to air the thirteenth [episode]," Whedon said. "Not refusing, but just not interested. I assumed that meant the bell tolled for us. And they made a point of calling and saying, ’That is not what it means, and we’ll keep you posted.’"

"I think they want it to succeed. I think they’re getting it," he added. "They need it to succeed enough for them to pay for it. So I’m oddly hopeful but I’m also ready for anything."

If the mysterious Dollhouse closes, Whedon has other irons in the fire — he’s at work on the film "The Cabin in the Woods," he said that he and his collaborators are hoping to shoot the next chapter of the online musical "Dr. Horrible’s Sing-Along Blog" in the spring of 2010, and he’s open to the idea of shopping around another show some day, perhaps to a cable network.

But it looks like his career as a musician is not going to be his fallback, should "Dollhouse" get canceled.

"Let’s put it this way," Whedon said of his musical appearance on "This American Life," "me singing is like Michael Jordan playing baseball."

If you don’t want to read the entire interview with Whedon, the transcript of which is below, here are the highlights:

* On "Dollhouse’s" chances for a second season: "The chances are existent. ... It’s not done huge numbers, but with DVR, demographics, blad-dee-blah-dee-blah — all the boilerplate that’s true about not living in a Neilsen world anymore is still true. Creatively the show found its footing rather dramatically the last few episodes, and the last ones we have coming up are fairly insane." * On whether that thirteenth episode will air — actually, here’s that section of the Q&A:

JW: I’m still negotiating with the network and the studio to try to get them to air the thirteenth episode.

MR: So that idea is not dead in the water?

JW: Well, I think it probably is and they’re just being nice to me. It’s going to be very weird to come back to a Season 2 not having aired that episode. I’ll also say that it will be weird to come back to a Season 2 having aired that episode. We can’t pretend it’s not canon, it’s going to be on the DVD and it’s going to air [in foreign markets]. It won’t be ignored. Therefore it’s a weird little bind that we’ve got into. I’m hoping the thirteenth will air, I’m pretty proud of it.

MR: So airing it hinges on "Dollhouse" getting renewed — is that what I’m hearing?

JW: I think they’re connected. I wouldn’t say it necessarily hinges on it.

* On Friday’s episode of the show: "The next episode, ’Haunted,’ is a standalone. It’s a quirky little piece with a lot of guest stars [he also called it a ’drawing-room mystery’]. I’m a little nervous about it. I think Eliza’s great in it. But I’m wondering, are people going to go, ’Now wait a minute, [where’s the mythology]?’ But it was my decision in the middle of all this [i.e., the development of ongoing stories] to say, ’Wait a minute, we can’t just be about our own mythology. Let’s try this other thing.’" * On dealing with a broadcast network and what that entails: "Here’s the thing: I got to fly under the radar for eight years, on networks so magical that they no longer exist. ... As soon as I came on to the radar, and started playing in the grownup world, with ’Firefly’ and ’Dollhouse,’ I started being treated the way every showrunner is treated. I did think, ’I’ve had a track record, so they’ll get it.’ But there is no such thing as a track record. You toil and you toil and you argue and argue and you tear your hair out and go nuts and eventually you either retire, go mad or become powerful enough to make your own show. You say, ’I am going to show them how it’s done!’ And that’s when you make ’Cop Rock From Cincinnati.’" * On the two halves of the "Dollhouse" season — the more standalone first five episodes and the more mythologically flavored second half of the season: "Well, the network saying [make] ’standalones’ is normal growing pains. That’s what a network normally does, no matter how many mythological shows succeed. And I didn’t want to have a purely mythological show, I wanted to have standalones. It was how we came at it that, um, there were differences of opinion. But none of them were, like, the network being awful or stupid. They had perfectly good reasons for the things they thought and some of them were true and some of them were useful ... I was dealing with people [at Fox] I respected, and [the show] was hard to find." * On possibly moving to cable with future projects: "...This thing happened with [’Dollhouse’ star] Eliza [Dushku, who had a deal at Fox]. I wasn’t pursuing television. If I had decided, ’I want to do television,’ I think I would have looked around and said, ’Well, clearly I need to get on cable’" because of the content restrictions of the broadcast networks. * On wanting to work on additional projects, even if "Dollhouse" does come back: "Even if the show comes back, I’ll be asking the question, ’What next?’ I’m never satisfied with just one thing. I’ll give the show my best, but I always [have something else]. I’m always going to be like, ’What’s that other star on that other horizon?’ That’s just how I’m wired." * Whedon on his "This American Life" performance: "I was just the musical guest. I sadly came on last, after three brilliant monologues and a lot of cool stuff. Literally, it was just like, ’Please, let me find the notes.’ … But it was fun. It was interesting. I was definitely out of my league."

The edited transcript of the interview with Joss Whedon is below. I don’t think it contains spoilers. It does not contain specific plot or or casting information. There is a section at the very end that contains episode summaries for the remaining "Dollhouse" episodes, but you will see a warning before you get to that.

MR: So it seems like you’ve had a busy weekend. By chance, did you attend a wedding this weekend?

JW: I attended a wedding on Saturday [Whedon’s brother, Jed, and Maurissa Tancharoen, both of whom worked on "Dollhouse" and "Dr. Horrible," got married on Saturday.] Last night, I performed on "This American Life."

MR: So that is what brought you to Chicago.

JW: Yes. I came to sing, and play the piano, which I’ve never done in public.

MR: How was that?

JW: Um. I did not fail. I hit the notes with a slightly quavery and rather nasal voice. But it was fun. It was interesting. I was definitely out of my league. But why not?

MR: So you weren’t the only performer.

JW: Yeah, it was the whole "This American Life" show, I was just the musical guest. I sadly came on last, after three brilliant monologues and a lot of cool stuff. Literally, it was just like, "Please, let me find the notes." Let’s put it this way — me singing is like Michael Jordan playing baseball. "Good effort! Good for him!"

Dollhouse_sc-48_9937 MR: So, "Dollhouse." The first and most obvious question — what are the chances it will come back?

JW: The chances are existent. It’s not done huge numbers, but with DVR, demographics, blad-dee-blah-dee-blah — all the boilerplate that’s true about not living in a Neilsen world anymore is still true. Creatively the show found its footing rather dramatically the last few episodes, and the last ones we have coming up are fairly insane.

I assumed it was dead in the water because the network was refusing to air the thirteenth [episode]. Not refusing, but just not interested. I assumed that meant the bell tolled for us. And they made a point of calling and saying, "That is not what it means, and we’ll keep you posted." I think they want it to succeed. I think they’re getting it. They need it to succeed enough for them to pay for it. So I’m oddly hopeful but I’m also ready for anything.

MR: You had said that there would be these two parts of the season, "Man on the Street" onward and the first five. Was that a conscious, creative decision on your part? How much of that was Fox saying, "Let’s make sure people understand this world"?

JW: Fox said, "Do the standalone episodes so that people can understand it so that people can get into the mythology," which I get. But because the process got a little twisted, some of the standalone episodes didn’t end up being as textured as I thought they could be. I had to call [frequent Whedon collaborator] Tim Minear and say, "Tim, I didn’t hate ’True Believer.’ [Comments about that have] been taken out of context." There were things that I was going for that I didn’t always achieve. Like ’Stage Fright’ and other episodes, which are diverting, but … [at this point fellow "This American Life" contributor Dan Savage walked by].

DS: Is this man bothering you?

MR: Yes.

[Savage and Whedon chatted for a moment.]

JW: So yeah, when it got to "Man on the Street," I felt like, OK, this is starting to ask the questions and get funkier. I was deliberate about saying, "I hope you enjoyed the first five episodes, but there’s more there."

MR: I guess what I’m wondering is, how much of what happened was the normal growing pains of any creative endeavor you’ve been involved in, and how much was it the network saying this and you wanting to do that — "standalones" versus Joss Whedon Vision.

JW: Well, the network saying "standalones" is the normal growing pains. That’s what a network normally does, no matter how many mythological shows succeed. And I didn’t want to have a purely mythological show, I wanted to have standalones. It was how we came at it that, um, there were differences of opinion. But none of them were, like, the network being awful or stupid. They had perfectly good reasons for the things they thought and some of them were true and some of them were useful and some of them were notes.

MR: The legend of Joss Whedon, though, is "Evil network! Good Joss!"

JW: Well, yeah, like [in a recent article], Rolling Stone made me out to be this maverick surrounded by morons. I called the publicity department the moment that reporter walked away and said, "This is what you’re going to get." Because that story was written beforehand. It makes me look great, so that’s nice, but I don’t like to talk trash about people I work with, especially when I don’t hate them. Especially when I don’t.

We had really worked together. I was dealing with people [at Fox] I respected, and [the show] was hard to find. It was a hard, hard premise. The premise kept me up at night long before I got a network note.

Last night I was talking with a great friend who was like, "I’m loving the show. Is Echo ever going to deal with the fact that she’s being raped repeatedly?" She got into this thing about consensual [sex] and we were talking about it, going back and forth. And it was like, "Yeah, this is dark." And this is one of the first people I ever pitched the show to. It’s very dark, very strange.

MR: Yeah, from the beginning I had an issue, and I wasn’t sure if you could get over this issue, which is — Echo can’t become fully conscious. Now I’m interested in Caroline, and that’s my hook into investing in the character. But I thought this at the beginning and I still wonder now — how invested can I get, because Caroline has to keep going away and maybe she can’t ever fully emerge. I still wonder how you navigate that.

JW: And I still wonder. Now that I’ve started thinking about a possible Season 2… The idea was that she would take more control. Then it becomes, if she’s taking more control, then is she really falling in love? Enjoying doing these things? And the paradigm was always that she would be able to do more and more good things. I don’t necessarily consider sleeping with someone a bad thing, but if it’s not consensual or if somewhere she’s going, "Actually, I’m not in love with this person" — how do you do that dance?

You have to do it in such a way that responsible and irresponsible. I mean, if we’re going to be doing good storytelling, we’re going to have to go to some strange places. But at the same time, the waters we are navigating have broken many a boat.

MR: I think the show turned a corner with "Man on the Street," but "Needs" was the first episode where I was like, "Wow."

JW: "Needs" was one of the first episodes that I ever dreamed up. It was one of the first episodes I pitched. Tracy Bellomo wrote such a beautiful script and [director] Felix Alcala just made a beautiful show. Gorgeous to look at and well-paced. Everyone was just firing on all cylinders. And it was like, "This is the kind of story we’re trying to tell." I loved "Spy in the House of Love" too.

The next episode, "Haunted," is a standalone. It’s a quirky little piece with a lot of guest stars. I’m a little nervous about it. I think Eliza’s great in it. But I’m wondering, are people going to go, "Now wait a minute, [where’s the mythology]?" But it was my decision in the middle of all this [i.e., ongoing stories] to say, "Wait a minute, we can’t just be about our own mythology. Let’s try this other thing."

MR: So the one that airs Friday is not the one with [an actor from a past Whedon show]?

JW: No, this is [a different one], this one’s a drawing-room mystery. Then we get into Paul Ballard having a breakthrough, instead of a breakdown — those have much pretty much come hand in hand for the poor guy. Then — is it OK for me to say [expletive]? Then [expletive] gets twisted.

MR: That’s OK, I’ll put it in Tribune-approved terminology. "Stuff gets pretty nifty!"

JW: "Gosh, it’s swell!"

Dollhouse_sc-40pt_5766 MR: So how many more episodes will air? Is that known yet?

JW: We don’t know. I’m still negotiating with the network and the studio to try to get them to air the thirteenth episode.

MR: So that idea is not dead in the water?

JW: Well, I think it probably is and they’re just being nice to me. It’s going to be very weird to come back to a Season 2 not having aired that episode. I’ll also say that it will be weird to come back to a Season 2 having aired that episode. We can’t pretend it’s not canon, it’s going to be on the DVD and it’s going to air [in foreign markets]. It won’t be ignored. Therefore it’s a weird little bind that we’ve got into. I’m hoping the thirteenth will air, I’m pretty proud of it.

MR: So airing it hinges on "Dollhouse" getting renewed — is that what I’m hearing?

JW: I think they’re connected. I wouldn’t say it necessarily hinges on it.

MR: As scheduled now, the "Dollhouse" finale airs May 8, then the "Prison Break" finale airs May 15. Would that last episode, if it airs, just air sometime in May or June?

JW: I’m pushing for the weekend after "Prison Break." It’s out of sweeps. They’re like, "It’s a terrible weekend, nobody watches TV." But this is not about getting a huge number. This is about — you have already decided to go one way or another and you have a night of programming where those who want to watch it can. And since it’s a big DVR show anyway, it doesn’t matter if it’s a lousy weekend.

And we made it. "Mommy, put it on the fridge. We made it!"

MR: Is it the whole cast or not the whole cast? I thought I read there were certain unusual aspects to this episode.

JW: It is the cast. But it is structured very differently. It was born out of necessity. It was born out the studio needing something cheap and dirty. It is both cheap and dirty and yet it is one of the episodes I’m proudest of. Because sometimes the mother of invention turns out to be that thing.

MR: So the episode that will air on May 8, is it conclusion-y?

JW: Yes, you could definitely pick up next season from there. We definitely switch stuff around, reveal some stuff and set some new things in motion. And it has a feel of closure. I just think it’s going to be weird if 20 percent of the people watching next season have seen an episode and 80 percent haven’t. How do we honor it?

MR: Just to get back to how the season unfolded, the idea that the Dollhouse is part of a much larger scheme or entity, was that your plan from the beginning?

JW: That was more — that came from Fox. My original conception was, the Dollhouse really was its own organization, this black market wing of this big corporation that was doing a lot of good. And that this really was a very private experience. Fox said, "We would be more interested if they were up to no good." I said, "Well, OK."

MR: So if I understand correctly, your original conception was that this was a bunch of good guys making their money off …

JW: Making money off of bad guys’ endeavors. It’s like, they are doing important brain research and helping cure things and around the world the most respected medical facility, blah blah blah. But under the boards, they’re funding themselves with this naughty place.

MR: And Fox wanted the corporation to be up to no good?

JW: They [said, "The Dollhouse] has all this information, it would be interesting if they were using it in a different way than just keeping it secret." So the questions become, who’s involved in that, who really believes that they’re doing something weirdly altruistic, and who knows if there’s some greater scheme at work?

Dollhouse_sc-50_9906 MR: And there’s the idea that the dolls willingly sign a contract and they’re going to get paid at the end of the contract — maybe that could all be a lie. You know, the proper English lady in the Prada skirt — maybe she’s lying.

JW: If she’s wearing a Prada skirt, she’s probably lying.

The volunteer thing we’ve been pretty clear about in "Needs" — that some people seem clearly seem to have volunteered and some people seem clearly not to have. It’s more a question of the organization exploiting people who had no other choice or wanted no other choice.

On "This American Life," we watched this thing about guys who had found a neural path, a drug that could drop certain memories. And all the letters they got from people begging to be test subjects, begging, "Please, just erase this thing from my mind." So the idea that there are volunteers is not remotely unrealistic.

On the other hand, whether they get to scamper off with a bundle of cash at the end of their term is not something that I am going to say. Because that is something you want to be worried about.

MR: Right, because there’s the ominous idea of being "sent to the attic."

JW: Yeah, and even though the attic was originally pitched by ["Dollhouse" writers] Jed [Whedon] and Maurissa [Tancharoen], it was not my idea, I was watching "Toy Story" [a script that Whedon contributed to] the other day with my kids, and there’s [that concept in that movie also,] "You’re going to end up in the attic!" I was like, "Well, I’ve come full circle!"

MR: As we were talking about before, the myth and the legend of Joss Whedon is that networks treat your shows badly. Do you ever think about going to cable?

JW: Here’s the thing: I got to fly under the radar for eight years, on networks so magical that they no longer exist. Like Camelot, they have disappeared into the mist. As soon as I came on to the radar, and started playing in the grownup world, with "Firefly" and "Dollhouse," I started being treated the way every showrunner is treated.

I did think, "I’ve had a track record, so they’ll get it." But there is no such thing as a track record. You toil and you toil and you argue and argue and you tear your hair out and go nuts and eventually you either retire, go mad or become powerful enough to make your own show.

You say, "I am going to show them how it’s done!" And that’s when you make "Cop Rock From Cincinnati." Because you have gone insane in the process of fighting the network all those years. And that’s what happens so often when someone realizes their dream project — that’s when they lose sight of their audience and what it is that they’re capable of.

There should be a system of checks and balances. You know, Greg Daniels [the executive producer of "The Office"], he didn’t want to work without development executives. He liked having someone to bounce off of and disagree with, which I thought was pretty rational.

MR: Well, I guess there’s this idea that if a cable network orders 13 episodes, they show 13 episodes. And I know they give notes, I know it’s not some magical paradise, but at the same time, it seems like what they want is more serialized, more textured, more character-based.

JW: Just because after the experience with "Firefly" … [jokingly] "a part of me never woke up again. Part of me was lost." Then this thing happened with Eliza [who had a deal at Fox]. I wasn’t pursuing television. If I had decided, "I want to do television," I think I would have looked around and said, "Well, clearly I need to get on cable because the restrictions [on the broadcast networks]…." I am doing a show about sexuality and I can’t show [the side of a breast].

MR: Well, what happens if you don’t get another season of "Dollhouse"? I don’t want you to box that part of your brain and put it in the attic.

JW: The way I made every season of "Buffy" was as if I was never going to make another one, because they never told me I was, except for once — when we went to UPN, we got a two-year pickup. That’s the only time that ever happened. That’s why I never did cliffhangers. And then I did one once and was like, "Oh God, it makes the first episode of the next season so much easier to write! Had I but known! That’s why they do them." But I always gave myself enough closure in case the roof caved in.

With "Dollhouse," I feel like there is closure. It’s the kind of closure that, as with any good series, asks more questions than it answers, but I also felt like, we got to say a lot of what we came here to say. I’ll never [adopts a quavering voice] let myself be hurt again, like "Firefly." It sounds so sappy but it’s totally true.

MR: Fans felt that way too. It’s not like you were the only one going, "I’m going to pick up my ball and go home!"

JW: Yeah. But with "Firefly," I knew. That was the difference between "Dollhouse" and "Firefly." With "Dollhouse," I got to a place where I was like, "What show am I making? What is this?" I literally didn’t know what I was doing anymore. And that made it weirdly frustrating in a new way. I just lost sight of my mandate. With "Firefly," I never did.

MR: What would you do next? Just go sit on a beach with your kids for three months? Or would a "Dr. Horrible"-style thing be next? Or would you develop a show for cable?

JW: I have been asking that question for about two months. I’ve been up in Canada, producing [the feature film he co-wrote with former "Lost" writer Drew Goddard] "The Cabin in the Woods." And spending all my time thinking about my next move.

If we are not graced with a second season, I’ve got at least one month sitting around with my kids, because [during the ’Cabin’ production] they’re in another city and I hate it. Even if the show comes back, I’ll be asking the question, "What next?" I’m never satisfied with just one thing. I’ll give the show my best, but I always [have something else].

I’m always going to be like, "What’s that other star on that other horizon?" That’s just how I’m wired. I’ve figured out about 16 answers to that question, and now I have to figure out which one of those was correct.

Drhorrible MR: I know you just did the "Dr. Horrible" panel at Paleyfest, but I’m still not sure — is there a definitive next chapter for that?

JW: We absolutely, categorically intend to do the next chapter.

MR: Before the aughts are through or what?

JW: It has to be during everybody’s hiatus — the actors, that is. I think ultimately we would be very disappointed if we weren’t filming it next spring. That’s when the next hiatus is. The problem is that I and all the writers have jobs. That may not be the case for all of us [laughs]. But whether it is or not, "Dr. Horrible" means to much to us. And working with those guys— Neal [Patrick Harris] is amazing, Felicia [Day] is amazing. Nathan [Fillion] — I think I might have an addiction.

MR: It’s guy love, between two guys.

JW: Exactly.

Here are the episode descriptions and guest-cast lists for the next episodes of "Dollhouse" from Fox’s press site. Check out here if you don’t want to see this information.

Friday

"Haunted"

When Adelle’s wealthy friend is murdered, Adelle imprints Echo with the woman’s memories and personality to solve the case. Ballard looks into Mellie’s past, and Topher secretly programs Sierra for an engagement.

Guest Cast: Amy Acker as Dr. Claire Saunders; Reed Diamond as Laurence Dominic; Miracle Laurie as Mellie; Aisha Hinds as Loomis; Rhea Seehorn as Jocelyn Bashford; Brenda Bakke as Margaret Bashford; Jordan Bridges as Nicolas Bashford; Gregg Henry as William Bashford; Ian Anthony Dale as Jack Dunston

May 1

"Briar Rose": Ballard’s investigation leads him to the agoraphobic designer of the Dollhouse (guest star Alan Tudyk), and the story of “Sleeping Beauty” foreshadows Echo’s future, while allowing her to help a young girl deal with her traumatic past. Adelle goes to the attic in search of answers, while Alpha reveals himself and sets his game in motion.

Guest Cast: Amy Acker as Dr. Claire Saunders; Reed Diamond as Laurence Dominic; Alan Tudyk as Stephen Kepler; Miracle Laurie as Mellie/November; Liza Lapira as Ivy; Aisha Hinds as Loomis; Hannah Leigh Dworkin as Susan; Judith Moreland as Renee

May 8

"Omega"

Alpha’s reign of terror continues as his obsession with Echo endangers Caroline’s survival, and Ballard’s search for the Dollhouse comes to an end, forcing him to make a life-changing decision. Meanwhile, one Doll is permanently deactivated while another’s shocking past is revealed in the “Omega” [season finale of sorts].

Guest Cast: Amy Acker as Dr. Claire Saunders; Miracle Laurie as Mellie/November; Alan Tudyk as Stephen Kepler; Angel Desai as Sophie Alvarez; Mark Sheppard as Agent Tanaka; Marco Sanchez as Blevins; Ashley Johnson as Wendy

The so-far-unscheduled thirteenth episode is called "Epitaph One" and Felicia Day is a guest star.