From Aintitcoolnews.com
Angel
Joss Whedon On An ANGEL Cliffhanger
Tuesday 18 May 2004, by Webmaster
In a piece published the Sunday before Buffy Summers died the second time (in the season-five finale of “Buffy the Vampire Slayer”), series mastermind Joss Whedon told The Los Angeles Times that he did not believe in cliffhangers.
We recall that several talkbackers, even after “Buffy” 5.22 aired, concluded that 5.22 was not a cliffhanger. Buffy died! No cliff involved!
And one could argue those talkbackers had a point.
Bearing all this in mind, here’s what young supergenius Whedon shares in this week’s Entertainment Weekly:
EW: Any chance “Angel” will end in a cliff-hanger?
JOSS WHEDON: I wouldn’t do that. That’s a crappy thing to do.
He also mentions he’d be up for a series of TV movies, each perhaps set in a different corner of the Buffiverse. One can only hope, as one hears Alyson Hannigan’s sitcom pilot didn’t make NBC’s autumn slate.
NBC announces its autumn slate later today.
The “Angel” series finale airs 9 p.m. Wednesday. The WB.
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Forum messages
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18 May 2004 21:19, by Bobby
Well, BTVS season five did end with closure. I mean, she died. Usually, death...kinda a done deal once your there. Hopefully, If Angel MUST end with questions unanswered, that those questions be things like, "Did he have to do that?" or "What was the reasoning behind that?" and not something like "WHO THE HELL WAS THAT!?" or "So did Angel fall ON that piece of wood sticking out of the wall or NEXT TO it?"
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18 May 2004 23:13, by Anonymous
wtf, but...Ithought he was leaving us with a cliff hanger...
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19 May 2004 06:20, by Jonsey
Season 3’s cliffhanger had season 4 to complete it. If season 5 ends in a cliffhanger, there’s nothing to conclude it.
It’d be like how they ended Farscape, and people are still bitching about it (they’re getting a miniseries or something to finish everything off, I believe).
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19 May 2004 17:04, by Phizzy
Farscape... Has FANS?!
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19 May 2004 22:55, by Diorette
Finishing the angel series on a cliffhanger is so completely inconsiderate to the fans. And after 8 years of faithful BtvS and Ats watching, this is what we get? So very uberwrong.
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Yes, Farscape has fans. doesnt mean we cant love angel and BTVS too. farscape was good for all the same reasons angel was: dark, edgy, exciting, action packed, funny, with a hot man in the hero seat. seems to me that both shows would appeal to sci-fi/fantasy fans all over. cant believe angel is over.
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20 May 2004 07:22, by melanie
psh. he wouldn’t do that my ass. if that episode didn’t end in a cliffhanger, then i guess i’ve got my definitions all mixed up.
but it was a good ending, to say the least.
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20 May 2004 07:33, by Abhorrent
My god. I am outraged. That was the worst way to end a series. EVER. Even worse than Farscape! At least with farscape, they wern’t willing to just let it die. The way Angel ended, it is so final, and so WRONG.
And phizz, I take offense. Farscape DOES have fans, it has enough fans to work very hard for over a year TO GET OUR SHOW BACK, AND WE DID IT! The Angel community should do the same. However, with the willingness that Joss seemed to have to let Angel die, and the fact that IT WAS A STINKING CLIFFHANGER, moves me to remove myself from the whole buffyverse alltogether.
The way Buffy ended, now that was an ending to be proud of. Good people died, yes, but the goal was accomplished and the day was won. Angel? I don’t even want to comment on it, it was so bad.
Nothing spectacular happened, nothing was won. A few baddies were killed, but we dont even get to see the reprocusions of the heros’ actions. And we dont get to see the ultimate battle between good and evil, there was no ultimate battle. A few evil people killed in a few seconds, nothing that hasnt been done on every other episode of Angel since the beginning. Angel himself just seems content to fight until he dies, with no goal or reason for the fighting. If he dies in the fight, nothing happens, nothing changes. If he wins the fight, nothing happens, nothing changes, because there was no reason for it, no drive behind the fight in the first place at all.
I am very let down, and very upset. And after all that, all they have to say is "To all the fans, thank you for watching."
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20 May 2004 07:39, by dan
Farscape has fans and rightfully so. The show, once its momentum got going mid season 1, was an amazing show, and rivals the intelligence, humor, drama, and epic of anything Whedon. I loved Angel, I loved a great deal of buffy, and right now, the return of Farscape is the only reason I have to turn the TV on again aside from Family Guy returning. Farscape ended with a real cliffhanger, it was unfitting. Angel ended with a poetic cliffhanger, fitting to end the show on. The big battle never actually gets shown, Angel has signed away his shanshu, wesley dies, its quite an ending if you ask me. I WANT MORE of course, I love it all, but if it is over, I’m glad it was this type of cliffhanger, and not last years, or the year before’s finale. It felt more complete.
In comparisson, Farscape ends with the seeming death of 2 main characters after a proposal and just does not feel right, resolution is needed. The 4 hour miniseries, which is already made, will air in the fall, and we hope to get the show back, or a movie made afterwards.
With all the talk surrounding these telemovie possibilities, I’m almost sure it will happen, there is so much fandom invested in the whedonverse, and you know a movie focusing on giles, one on willow, one on buffy, spike, angel, illyria, xander, etc, will draw alot of attention. In fact, it may be more fitting as a way to continue things as the characters find themselves spread thin in this world.
Anyway, thats my 2 cents as an Angel fan, and a Farscape fan. And if you never gave farscape a chance, check out seasons 2-4 its some of the best television ever made (in good company here)
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20 May 2004 14:33, by Bitterlysweet
NOT A CLIFFHANGER????? In what world do you see that as not a cliffhanger???
In season three you were at least certain Angel was gonna be found EVENTUALLY, even it it was by some aliens a million years from now. But no, the last ever episode was a cliffhanger and then some. Audiences want resolutions to stories when they end, and this should have been considered especially with the Angel series as people were so angry about it ending before its time. The ending is pretty much OMG he’s dead but does anyone remember that army of 100,000 Ubervamps in the last series of Buffy? The audience was happy with that because guess what, WE SAW THEM DIE!! There was the actions of destroying the circle in Angel, but you must have a part dealing with the ramifications of their actions, otherwise they are seen as pointless. The whole way through the episode i felt myself asking, is this really the end? They seemed to be setting themselves up for another series. For someone who "doesnt like cliffhangers" to write this means he must be up to something. The Buffy season 5 had no cliff because we knew it would be back, Angel has a CHASM at the end. Apart from in our imaginations, we will never know what happens, and that, i feel, will betray many fans.
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20 May 2004 15:54, by Anonymous
the series finale wasnt a cliffhanger. they are dead and they made sure you knew that by reidorating it throughout the episode. Fred has been dead Illyria is dead Wes is dead Gun is dead Spike is Dead and Angel is dead. He didnt leave a cliffhanger. They just knew they had to kill the black thorn and they knew they would die while doing it. no cliffhanger intended...
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20 May 2004 19:38, by Spikerulz04
I think the way that Joss has done it is that people think that it is a cliffhanger but Joss has left it so that everyone uses there common sense! There are 4 people left to take on a huge army and a massive flying dragon....hmmm doesnt take much to decide whats going to happen......
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20 May 2004 22:08, by Drew
Sorry. That ending was the definition of a cliffhanger. A cliffhanger is when a story or TV series for this matter, ends with a suspense or without a resolution.
I think Joss could have done a 2-hour season finale if he couldn’t fit it in 1 hour. I know he’s against it, but if they can have a 2 hour season finale and premiere for a regular season of Buffy. They could do it for the SERIES finale of ANGEL. I think that, the movies with tie up loose ends. It’s clear that Angel obviously wasn’t ready to end. Too many things weren’t resolved. Does he turn human? Who wins? What happens to the love triangle?
That’s the definition of a cliffhanger. And I could assume the majority of fans were left with their jaws open saying "Is this just a commercial? What happens!?" Hence... cliffhanger.
See online : http://www.avidgamers.com/slayerhell
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21 May 2004 05:16, by Whisper
At first i was as pissed as the next person. Then once the shock of it wore off, it made sense and it was an excellent ending to the series. The show is about redemption. Redemption can’t be gained by selfish means, which is the Shanshu. Angel signed away his reward and continued fighting the good fight knowing that he would most likely lose. That’s his redemption.
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21 May 2004 09:01, by Wolverine68
Seems either Joss does not know what "cliffhanger" means, or he’s a liar.
Cause this Angel finale, was the mother of all cliff hangers!
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21 May 2004 09:10, by Wolverine68
Oh, and to Spikerulz04.
Yes, 4 people can take down an army.
Seems I recall hearing about an old legend of how one man defeated a whole army, by facing them all at a bridge, where they were forced to fight him one on one.
Here’s the battle plan for what happens after the credits.
As Angel sais, he wants the dragon. I figure those common foot soldiers are no match for Illyria, evgen of there’s 50 or so of them.
Spike can go after what ever that giant thing was in the back, and Gunn can just back up Illyria.
You people are such fools. It’s sad that the majority of society is a bunch of imbecils who can’t think for themsleves. You hear Joss Wierdon say he won’t give a cliff hanger. So you figure it’s not a cliff hanger, so everyone must DIE.
Did you ever stop and think that he lied? OR changed his mind?
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21 May 2004 15:38, by rogue_pigeon
At first i saw it as a cliffhanger...but then shortly after it dawned on me that THAT was how Angel should have ended.
The way they set up WR&H to be the power behind all meant that they could never justify managing to remove them. They were doomed to fail.
They way i see that ending is that Gunn is as good as dead anyway, and they deffinitley aren’t going to win that fight. They’ll be destroyed and WR&H will reset everything as they want it, not destroy the world (it was too focused to be a proper ’apocalypse’)
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22 May 2004 04:34, by Guniw
They can take them. The prophecies hadn’t been fulfilled, and there was nothing to say that Angel was the Vampire with the soul in question. Regardless, we’ve already seen what good prophecies are, and that deviating from the path, doesn’t necessraily mean the end to Shanshu.
Since when has Angel been unable to handle himself in a fight? SERIOUSLY! He’s always found a way. Look at the fight with Hamilton. If he was imbued with all the ancient powers of Wolfram & Hart, how the hell did Angel prevail? We know this! Plus, now Angel has enough of WR&H’s ancient powers to have taken out Hamilton, sooo... what’s the problem?
What we got, is simply what we have. It’s been a great 5 years, 8 if you want to go the route of Buffy inclusion. Either way, we should remember what we love about the show, and if you care so much to want to argue, why not support Joss along the way? Maybe in the future we can get something just as quality from the same creative team. ^_^
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22 May 2004 16:37, by Phreak
[quote] I figure those common foot soldiers are no match for Illyria, evgen of there’s 50 or so of them[/quote]
If you listen to what Angel says, he tells the group that the Senior Partners will bring their full force down on them, and they won’t survive. Dare I say, if the Senior Partners are as powerful as the show has made them out to be (and by the looks of the foot soldier scene), there would be at least 1 thousand times the foot soldiers you estimated. Remembering of course, the Senior Partners also control other dimensions (Pylea?).
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25 May 2004 16:07, by Ripper
Believing they survived is like believeing that Butch and Sundance lived. They didn’t show it but the point came across. They died, but they died fighting, just as they wanted.
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25 May 2004 23:21, by Anonymous
Ok people are you guys just not thinking or what? Does anybody think that the "Powers that be" would just sit back and do nothing and let the senior partners kill their "champions"? The powers are just as powerful as the partners. You think the powers does not have an army of good? maybe the powers protect the group somehow for a later battle. Plus angel has the ancient powers of the wolf the ram and the heart.
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26 May 2004 20:28, by Anonymous
I just can’t shake the image of Buffy and an army of slayers showing up in the alley to back Angel and Co. up.
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29 May 2004 04:43, by Brad
Perhaps we are taking this all wrong. I for one think that the Angel series could go so much further. If you look back to the BTVS series they said that every season was expected to be the last and after season 6 everyone thout that it was the last until they changed their minds to do one more season. Perhaps it is the same with angel
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29 May 2004 14:35, by Anonymous
There doesn’t seem to be enough information from the sources about Angel, it has been "hinted" that is the last season, and obviously no information has been given about the next season, if they intended to not make another season would they have just said "thats it" although the little clip saying "thankyou" at the end of 5x22 said it all... no? All i’m thinking is a spin off thats better than the original show of BTVS needs to go on, at least for the 7 seasons that buffy did.
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30 May 2004 06:43, by Anonymous
I swear, every single person who whines about the final scene of Angel is an idiot. It DOESN’T MATTER whether they lived or died. Let me say that again, just so we’re clear:
IT DOESN’T MATTER WHETHER THE FANG GANG LIVED OR DIED.
That’s not the point. It has never been the point of the show, and it’s not what the show is about.
"Angel: The Series" was about the ongoing struggle of redemption—it was about fighting, no matter what, no matter what the cost. Ever since the beginning, it’s been about struggling, fighting, and the idea that there is NO point where you get a pretty little certificate that says "You’re redeemed!". You just have to keep fighting.
And guess how "Angel: The Series" ended?
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31 May 2004 10:25, by Draxy
Yer, the ending showed the ongoing struggle.
So like, they could have ended it in series 1 episode 1, with the caption "he fights on..." The End.
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8 June 2004 00:33, by Wolverine68
Kinda lame that after 5 years of Angel, he finally comes face to face with a dragon, and the camera stops rolling before we get to see him slay it.
That’s why we are pissed.
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