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Monday 19 January 2004, by Eric Faustus : Heeeeeeeelllll no. Dawn is dead weight as a character and does not fit in with the Angel dynamic at all. She has no business going on even as a guest star.Monday 19 January 2004, by Anonymous : Dawn would fit in better than Spike Ive signed it. Tuesday 20 January 2004, by coolassang : Why in God’s name would anyone want Dawn on "Angel"? She was an enormous nuisance on Buffy; she should’ve been tossed off the crazy people’s tower at the end of season 5! I mean do they really need another annoying human without powers on "Angel" to save every week? "Dawn’s in trouble? It must be Tuesday..." Dawn was by far the most annoying character on Buffy, even surpassing Kennedy! It would make no sense whatsoever to have her show up in L.A.! Spike’s link to Angel/Wolfram & Hart is in the Gem, and he and Angel have a past; this is good reason to add Spike to the cast, not only for some much needed humor which "Angel" was sorely lacking. Not to mention the fact that Spike is a far superior "ensouled one" than Angel has ever been - Angel is immediately evil upon losing his soul, and he knows what he’s doing, and chooses to hurt those closest to him; whereas Spike transformed for love and chose his soul, even if just for Buffy in the beginning. Angel helps people because he’s forced to, Spike fights for the better good, to be a better man. He may not want to, but he can’t help himself. "... I’m free if that bitch dies; I’d better help her out." He was not as evil as Angel when he didn’t have his soul, and you could see a hidden hurt in Spike, but Angel was pure evil and loved being so. Think back to some scenes with Willow when he was so hurt by Dru - there was a spark of humanity there; the need to be loved, even without his soul. Countless times in Buffy’s season 6 Spike was there for Dawn, talking to her, trying to help her and make her feel better - no soul in sight. So we see Spike this season challenging Angel’s high and mighty view of being a "champion" making Angel realize that Spike is the true champion. I think it’s a great direction for Joss to take: putting Spike up against Angel because maybe there is something there that Angel needs to explore! Tuesday 20 January 2004, by Anonymous : I really like Dawn, but I just don’t think there’d be a plausible reason to have her on the show without it feeling gimmicky. She wasn’t really important enough where I could see a good reason for her to be in town, specifically at WR&H. They’re already shoe-horning Andrew into a guest role, which I don’t really have a problem with, but to do that, and then conveniently throw Dawn into an epsiode later on...it’d be kinda convenient. :P At least there’s precedent for having Willow return...Tuesday 20 January 2004, by Anonymous : Dawn would fit better than Spike? Are you stoned? Spike and Angel hate each other more than anybody... this second half of the season will probably be a lot like Buffy Season 2! Dawn is the most annoying character from the worst seasons of Buffy Tuesday 20 January 2004, by tony : Yet more Selfish Spike Fans.. "He is the bestest Souled Vamp he did it for love..." Dont u realise Angel is a normal Vampire and getting a soul was unexpected. Spike getting a soul was exploiting the Mythology Joss had created in order to satisfy Spike fans. Dawns Intro to Angel will be no more intruding and out of place than Spikes would have been (Who cares if they have a history). Thats why i signed the Petition. Wednesday 21 January 2004, by WBS : Dawn is a well-loved character? News flash to me.Wednesday 21 January 2004, by Anonymous : I liked Dawn but she doesn’t fit in with Angel. And yes folks whether you like it or not Spike IS the better souled vampire than Angel will ever be. Angel as Angeleus would never get his soul back for Buffy, Spike did. Spike got his soul back so he would be the better man for Buffy. Spike is the True Champion not Angel. Anyone who thinks otherwise are just plain foolish.Wednesday 21 January 2004, by Anonymous : Um, how are spike fans selfish? You do realize that Angel would never have had been renewed if is wasn’t for Spike. Be grateful.Wednesday 21 January 2004, by Anonymous : Personally, I’d love to see Dawn appear on Angel. Since Sarah Michelle Gellar seems lukewarm on guest-starring, it’d be nice to have one of the Summers sisters show up. It’d give Spike and Angel a new way to fight over Buffy. I could totally see each of them trying as hard as they can to make a good impression on Dawn - in the hopes that she says something nice about them, when she returns to Buffy. And the whole time, they’d be sniping and undercutting each other’s attempts at getting into Dawn’s good graces. So in terms of a light comedic episode, I’d love an appearance by the littlest Summers girl. Poor Dawn would be stuck in the middle, as Spike and Angel do their damnedest to impress her - each trying to be a cool big brother, during her stay. Since Dawn already has chemistry with Spike, I’d love to see that dynamic revisited. And I’d enjoy seeing Angel’s dour and apathethic new demeanour contrasted with Dawn’s cheerful effervescene. And I can totally see her getting into some sort of danger - and then Spike and Angel would fall all over themselves, trying to be the one who saves her - partly because Buffy would be quite grateful to the person who rescues her little sister. Beyond that, I actually *like* Dawn’s character. I found her quite charming, and thought her story was quite affecting. And I think Michelle Trachtenberg has great comedic timing. Angel usually throws in a light-hearted episode after a stretch of dark and heavy eps. If done correctly, I think an appearance by Dawn could have a fun comedic spin. Wednesday 21 January 2004, by christine : I think dawn should get engaged to connor now that would be one hell of a story line that would open doors to a ton of humorus high jinksWednesday 21 January 2004, by Mike : I don’t think there is any urgent need to see any more of Dawn. Maybe in a year or two... But how complicated would it be to do this?! She didn’t exist when Angel was on Buffy. How would they work in the history between Dawn and Angel without losing us completely? They’d have to keep referencing events that we never saw, and that could get boring. And/Or complicated. Not so much with the fun then..? To the people talking about Spike getting his soul for ’love’ - let’s not forget why he really started helping the scoobies: the CHIP! His good deeds originally emerged through the (nefarious?) operant conditioning installed by Maggie Walsh. Even though he was ’Evil’, he still did good deeds. His chip worked as a perfect substitute for the guilt imposed by the soul - most people don’t want to do bad things because it makes them feel guilty (which hurts a lot), whereas Spike didn’t want to do bad things because he didn’t want to get his head zapped. This whole thing taps into the debate over whether intention actually matters. If a McDonalds has a charity to help children, we might say ’It’s just to make them look good, but we know they’re evil really’, but that doesn’t change the fact that their helping children is a Good Thing. Spike was still evil when he went off to get a soul. ("What have I done? Why didn’t I do it?") He had an obsessive love built on a fantasy - a manic infatuation that did not allow him to think about or do anything else but search for ways that he could be with Buffy. He grasped the one option left that could possibly have allowed that, having tried to change Buffy (with only temporary success), and trekked off to soul-findy-land. He was always ’love’s bitch’, right through to the end, and this is not a noble thing. It’s an animal, chemical thing. Whether our vampires asked to be ensouled or not could be argued to be irrelevant. If we look at their actions rather than their motivations then we may have a fairer basis on which to compare them. Wednesday 21 January 2004, by Anonymous : After reading the replies WOW spike fans are unbeleivably dense. He did not save AbNgel The Change in the Cast and the DROP IN BUDGET saved Anggel U beleive otherwise then u are delusional. Spike storyline was the worst written pease of drivel sice the last Charmed episode aired so him and angel dont compare *sighs* Thursday 22 January 2004, by Anonymous : Spike fans dense? Are you serious? There was talk of cutting the buget for Angel but they still weren’t certain the show was going to be renewed until James Marsters was asked to come onto the show. Joss Whedon even said that the WB network got all excited at the prospect of having him coming on. You people need to get over it. Spike and Angel are not the same and thank god for that. You guys seem to keep forgetting that Spike had to work hard for his redemption and winning his soul (not cursed with one)proves he is the better person. Spike is the best thing about Angel.Thursday 22 January 2004, by hater : your Fangirl post just proved my point Duhhh *rolls eyes* *shakes head* *leaves in disbelief* Friday 23 January 2004, by Spuffyfan : Being a huge Spike and Spuffy fan here, I am alarmingly concerned about the Spike fan bashing. I hope to God I never meet one of you guys in fear that you’ll murder me just for being a Spike fan. I don’t understand where the character hatred now has extended to the fans. I have not done anything to you guys but still you insist on desrespecting me for having Spike as my favorite character. The line has been crossed when fans bash other fans for thier opinion.Friday 23 January 2004, by Anonymous : I’m going to have to agree with Spuffyfan here. I myself am an avid Angel lover-the character as well as the show—but I still like Spike. The character bashing doesn’t appall me as much as the fan bashing does. It’s rude and inconsiderate from both sides. I don’t think there’s any reason for anyone to be hateful towards someone else for a difference in opinion, and those who are like that are just being childish. I’m almost ashamed to say that I share the same likes and dislikes as some of the people that have commented here.Saturday 24 January 2004, by Lucie : OH MY GOD!!! You people get WAY too into this. Ya wanna know why I like Spike? the simple reason that he’s hot. And as shallow as that may be, I think that that is what his mass-appeal is based on. So just stop with the wars and get over yourselves. It’s not like Angel and Spike are even real, or like y’all are gonna meet the actors. God, am I the only sane person in this joint?Saturday 24 January 2004, by Amberina : I was the person who created the petition. I obviously like Dawn. A lot of other people obviously do too. Could you just *not* support it, instead of bashing it? You whine and cry about Spike being bashed, yet you turn around and bash Dawn? I’m sorry, that makes no sense. That’s all I have to say on the matter. Saturday 24 January 2004, by coolassang : Have to agree completely with Spuffyfan... I’m giving an opinion on a forum used to debate different elements of my favorite shows. I would never personally bash any one of you for your opinion, even if you love Dawn! HAHA! If you’re taking it so seriously to call me dense, then maybe you’re missing the point of watching these shows in the first place; I mean, not a damn thing real here except the affection we feel for the characters being portrayed... and even then "real" must be used loosely! How can you develop such disdain for fellow fans of a truly unique show? Not everyone gets "Angel" & "Buffy", and the mere fact that we all love to watch should earn us enough respect to post our feelings about THE SHOWS on here without being bashed with such hate. Do you seriously think you can decipher Whedon well enough to justify calling us dense? I sure don’t; I just love to discuss it with other fans to get their perspectives on things, but I’m in no position to judge them for their feelings! I think he has used Spike’s recent availability to bring focus on the fact that Angel has never really had any gut check moments (with the exception of "Buffy" Season 3 when Joyce came to talk to him about his future with Buffy; that was a semi-gut check only because we didn’t get to see him come to the painful decision)! Angel has not really had to face his personal inner demons in a way such as this... now maybe he isn’t the ONE, the CHAMPION... maybe he will turn out to be in the end, maybe not, but in true Whedon style, he won’t get there without some horrific emotional trauma along the way! And man, who better to inflict such trauma than Spike??? Myself, I see a greatness within Spike that, true, started because a chip forcing him to contain himself, but there is no doubt for me that in Season 6, he changed - chip or no. Just think of that 1st episode of Season 6 right after Buffy dies, before they bring her back... he’s babysitting Dawn... you see his guilt over failing Buffy and his pain in that loss, and he is very much without soul at that time! That was my point before... you don’t have to agree, it’s just something, for those of you willing, to consider. You won’t find a bigger fan of Buffyverse than myself... I can happily admit that I’m a bit obsessive about it: the writing, the characters, the language. While I believe that "Angel" has a little work to do to match the overall intelligence of "Buffy", it has made better progress toward that of late. I can see a real genius in Whedon’s work with these characters, and I believe Spike and Angel are both excellent examples of that. Neither were meant to be a regular on "Buffy" (please excuse any double meaning here), and yet look at where we are... THEY are the reason we are even having this discussion today. (And yes, it has been reported again and again about Spike’s importance in there being a Season 5.) I love every aspect of the "Buffy" and "Angel" series’, even the parts that make me cry horribly and hate intensely... that’s the genius of it!! Why else would I be posting at 4:10a.m.?? But no part of it makes me think less of another fan for feeling differently about a character or plot line than I. We should all be united in fandom of such a great series, and be thankful for every part of it as long as we can. It’s obvious that it can be taken away from us far too soon, and leave us with the "I wonder what..." thoughts like we’re feeling now with "Buffy". While I’m not going to lose any sleep over some postings calling us dense, I will advise all to enjoy these chances we have to debate! I mean, just flip around and look at all the crap on TV now... "Angel" being renewed is a virtual Godsend (yes, in large part thanks to Spike, the loss of Conner, and finally getting the cast out of that dark funk they had sunk in to... hahaha)! Saturday 24 January 2004, by coolassang : For one thing... a forum is meant to discuss the articles on this site, which is why we are talking about Dawn’s addition to the show in the first place! Evidently, it’s topic enough to spark so much debate, so I would think you would enjoy that, but I guess you aren’t so open to reading opinions that differ from your own... at least it doesn’t appear that way since you took it so personally that we were even talking about it. And still, I don’t think less of you for feeling that way... but I still don’t agree that adding Dawn is a good move for the show, and I question the actual figures on her being so well-loved! (But that’s just my opinion!) Another thing, I believe our "issue" was with the personal fan bashing, not with who likes Spike and who likes Dawn. Prior to that, we were just offering thoughts on the petition, and how Dawn would fit in on "Angel" and someone said something about Spike not belonging either... hence the debate. No, it’s not politics or national healthcare or anything, it’s just something we enjoy to watch. And some of us like to get others’ opinions on things, and obviously some don’t! If you don’t then why are you even wasting time with us? And frankly, the hotness of Spike is irrelevant to me, but I’m thrilled that’s why some tune in because if you watch, I could care less what your reason is - to each his own! I’ll take the viewers anyway we can get them... I’m sure the WB will too! (Although he may be hot, I was a little thrown when I learned that James Marsters is like 41 or something... it gave an ooooohhh factor to him and Buffy I’d never felt before!) BRING ON THE BASHING!!! Saturday 24 January 2004, by Anonymous : Um, Amberine, I like Dawn too and I DO NOT BASH any character! I think debat is fine and I like reading other people’s opinions, it’s just when the fans start bashing other fans (not the characters) is what I find unacceptable. It’s rude and uncalled for. I resent what you said Amberine. Coolassang, I agree with your post.Saturday 24 January 2004, by fortunateizzi : Lucie, actually lots of fans have met the actors. Ever heard of Buffy conventions?? I met James, he’s a sweetie. Not that any of this has to do with the Michelle petition. ::AHEM::Saturday 24 January 2004, by Amberina : I was not looking down anyone . . . or calling anyone names. It just bothers me when people talk about hating a particular character in such harsh terms. There are ways to go about saying you disagree without bashing. For instance, "Dawn should die!" is kinda of harsh. "I never liked Dawn, and don’t see the point of her on Angel," isn’t offensive. I don’t know, perhaps I’m too used to people respecting other people’s opinions. These comments are an anwser to this article : Michelle Trachtenberg - Petition To Visit Angel
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