From Teevee.org
Buffy The Vampire Slayer
Joss Whedon Re-examined
By Monty Ashley
Friday 16 April 2004, by Webmaster
I had hoped that with all his shows cancelled, the Internet would take a break from slobbering all over Joss Whedon. But it never stops!
Yeah, the guy made some great TV. But not so great that anyone else who does a good show is now “Doing a Whedon.” It’s not like Whedon invented television.
Actually, that’s part of what annoys me: There are people whose first exposure to silly sci-fi was Buffy. So when they see another show doing a plot that Buffy did, they say things like “They stole that from Buffy!” But the whole gimmick behind Buffy, at least for the first few years, was that it was doing absolutely generic horror-movie plots, but putting a spin on them.
I guess it’s just that I don’t think Whedon “reinvented” anything. He’s good with dialogue, but I don’t think his characterizations are all that great. And the long-term plotting on his shows is terrible.
Whedon’s shows pretend to have a big story arc, but it falls down on close inspection. Take the introduction of Dawn, which seems like it would require a lot of retconning of the previous seasons. And the way vampires were originally evil “because they are half-demon,” but after a few years, demons turned out to be just regular guys. A lot of the time, I feel like Whedon is doing “vaguely prophetic” things, like that one dream episode, with no idea of how he’s going to tie it together. I never understood the whole Wolfram & Hart angle on Angel, and I really don’t think any of the writers did either. This is an area where The X-Files would be a good comparison.
As far as his characterization, this might just be me, but I think the personalities of his characters vary wildly. Xander was sometimes an empathetic observer and sometimes the biggest idiot in the world (“Bitca?”). Willow was a computer nerd who completely forgot about computers for a couple of years so the show could do a weird magic-as-drugs plot. The early Spike has almost nothing in common with today’s Spike, except for the accent. And so on.
I realize that some people (although not me) have identified strongly with various Whedon characters. But they tend to be the same people who say things like “Season 7 Giles must have been possessed by an evil entity” and “That’s not Buffy. The Buffy I know ...”
I’d rather see an episode written by Tim Minear or Ben Edlund than an episode written by Joss Whedon. I think Whedon’s concepts are clever but, upon closer examination, usually incoherent. He’s good at quips, though.
Maybe I’d like Whedon to come up with general concepts, leave the writing and plotting to other people, and then come in to add zingers. 28
Forum messages
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16 April 2004 14:18, by sensor
The characters start the show as high-schoolers (and that includes Spike, if you’re talking emotional maturity), and end it as adults. They go through major disaster and trauma too. Of course they are very different by the end of the series, and I love that about the show. I don’t know any other show that had the guts to do that, that had the guts to show how people really hurt and and act out and change when they go through stuff.
What the writer of this article doesn’t seem to get is that the show’s genius and originality are right there, in the fact that the characters exhibit wildly (consistently)inconsistent behavior, and undergo dramatic changes, as they grow from children to adults and experience their first major losses and responsibilities. Just like real people do.
I agree there was some silliness and inconsistency in the plot lines. I didn’t like the magic/drugs thing, or the Giles-doesn’t-touch-anything-for-weeks thing much. Kind of lame. But I like the prioritization of characterization and emotional honesty. And who expects perfection from people pumping out a weekly show under less than optiimal conditions?
Joss and his bunch are tops.
See online : Joss Whedon re-examined
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16 April 2004 15:08, by Anonymous
Totally agrees.
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16 April 2004 15:10, by Darth Xander
Ya, What ever you say, your the expert.
Instead of trashing MR. Whedon show’s
try inventing something of your own.
Like George Lucas has to film, Joss
has created a world of characture’s
that people like star wars will be
talking about A generation from now &
more.
Lucas created a saga for Film, Joss
Whedon created a saga for Telivision.
Reality tv & sitcom’s. Boy what to look
forward too!
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16 April 2004 15:15, by Anonymous
Get a real job!!!! Critics are just people who misplace their anger at their own awful lives onto others. Joss did not invent TV but hell, he is a fantastic visionary with amazing shows and films to his credit!!!!
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16 April 2004 15:28, by nick
’’that dream episode’’ its called ’’restless’’, do your homework before you bash. everyone is titled to their own opinion, you are just bitter. joss deserves praise. restless had a very big point, if you couldn’t see that, then you obviously haven’t got enough knowledge to write this article. get a life.
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16 April 2004 16:40, by Anonymous
Wow, I came here expecting to see something interesting, something I didn’t know, something new, but all this guy is doing is basing his findings unfairly on what he preceives to be true (’he early Spike has almost nothing in common with today’s Spike, except for the accent.’), and, well, basically, nothing different from what I always see. What a waste.
It seems the majority of people are more interested in the characters created by the show and keeping them, NOT Whedon. It actually seems like this person is more interested in Joss Whedon that many of the fans who like his shows; in an ’I’m a pissed off teenager who is jealous of him’ (’It’s not like Whedon invented television.’, come ON!)way...
I honestly half expected this to end with ’Buffy and Angel 4 EVA!!1!!!’, or ’Joss is an ass’. This shouldn’t be called ’Joss Whedon Re-examined’ (because I would like to see him re-examined, with an ego like that), it should be called ’A Pissed-off Guy Who Is Mad About Whedon Doing Something He Didn’t Like and Wants To Make It LOOK Like He Knows Stuff’
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16 April 2004 16:44, by Boo Boo Kitty
I kind of agree. Joss works best as a script doctor. He should’ve stuck with that, imo. (The ’Speed’ script, which he "doctored" and wrote 98% of, was brilliant!) He’s GREAT at funny dialogue, occasionally great at directing and frankly BAD at "sending messages" or creating consistancy in his themes, stories and characterisations.
I think he thinks he’s a lot smarter than most truly smart people think he is. Which is his downfall, imo. He’s not actually that clever.
Yes, he’s seen a lot of movies. Yes, he had an expensive/extensive education. Yes, he comes from three generations of television writers. Which would make a moderately intelligent person SEEM very clever.. and it certainly looks good on paper, but dig a bit deeper and you’ll only find more surface.
Joss is a lot of things, but he’s no God.
You want a quotable comic genius with an interesting philosophical perspective, who creates weird and wonderful stories featuring unique and memorable characters? Read a Tom Robbins novel.
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16 April 2004 17:06, by stake
it doesn’t matter who else has done what. Joss is a brilliant mind.Had anyone else done these shows, it would not have the humor,the wit, the incredible writing that joss has done. He’s done it better than anyone else in this genre. I think his big fan base speaks for itself. He stands out among other writers. the fact that there is a phrase "doing a whedon" proves that. so if people want to "slobber" over him, he’s earned it.
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16 April 2004 17:12, by V
Wow... she like... watched 3 episodes of Buffy in her life?
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16 April 2004 17:17, by Ken
"Maybe I’d like Whedon to come up with general concepts, leave the writing and plotting to other people, and then come in to add zingers."
Thats precisely what he does. He’s the Executive Producer; he comes up with the general concept, other people write the scripts, and then he adds ’zingers’ to every script
evidently hush, the body and once more, with feeling dont rate a mention in your little rant?
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16 April 2004 18:45, by Lia
Grr-Argh! Do you even watch the shows? Almost every one of those character arcs were absolutely perfect. If you look closely you will see that while, no, Joss doesn’t always know where he’s going to take the characters, where he does take them always makes sense.
For example, Xander who you say is either "the emphatic observer" or "the biggest idiot in the world." Well, as the show has stated many times before, Xander is the heart of the Scoobies. I take this to mean that while he deeply cares about the gang, he is always following his emotion of the moment which isn’t always what he should be following. Hence, Xander being the sweetest guy in the world one moment and then leaving Anya at the altar the next.
And the introduction of Dawn? There was foreshadowing of that as early as s3 (Joyce commenting on how it’s a good thing Buffy is an only child, Faith’s Little Miss Muffet comment in the dream sequence of "Graduation Day Pt. 2") and blatant foreshadowing in s4 (Faith commenting on little sis coming in the dream sequence of "This Year’s Girl," Tara telling Buffy to be back before Dawn in "Restless" and in the same ep Buffy looking in at Dawn’s future bedroom while Tara has a VO of "You think you know what you are, what’s to come, you haven’t even begun")
Joss doesn’t know where he will take everything from day one but, hey, does any TV guy know exactly where each character and plot will go, each season and each episode? Hell no. Joss always seems to have a general idea of where he wants things to go and when he does come up with a new plan he works it beautifully into the show (i.e: the development of Spike as a main character, which was perfect, IMO) Joss is a great writer who brings this special quality to his work that few can duplicate successfully. If you’re this bothered by online fan worship of Joss’s work, then get over it and go somewhere else.
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16 April 2004 19:00, by BillieV
"And the long-term plotting on his shows is terrible."
I’m sorry... I’m sure I and most others will stop laughing at just how innacurate that is any minute now. Any idiot can point out just how far in advance most of the stuff was planned - several seasons ahead in many cases.
As for writing ability, well four words prove just how much garbage is being talked there;
"Once More, With Feeling".
Want another? Okay; "Hush"
Try backing up the trash-talking with some actual facts next time.
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16 April 2004 22:13, by Stormy 13
Joss Wheadon is very talented and has a vivid and full imagination, HOWEVER, he is not the reason for the success of ’Buffy’ and ’Angel’ alone. Many people - writers, cast, crew, special effects and support workers helped to make these shows ’must-see t.v.’. I fear that people ignore the wonderful contributions of others to the success of these shows. This critic seems a little biased to me but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It will not change the fact that I have enjoyed many hours watching both of these shows and appreciate the efforts of all involved. Just my 2 cents!
P.S. He is great with dialogue!!
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16 April 2004 22:31, by chele
When I saw the title of this article, I couldn’t wait to read it. In the back of my head was a great hope that it would be announcing the WB’s reconsidering its’ poor judgment in cancelling Joss Whedon’s show ANGEL. Well, needless to say, this is a totally inappropriate title for this article, misleading at best and insulting to most. I have laughed myself silly and cried myself into complete sadness over story lines, characters and episodes in Whedon’s world. I am a fan of all his creations as each offers the viewer a different world to visit, to enjoy and to follow. I do not think I could watch any show for 7 years and not expect changes; if life offers us anything consistant, it is that very fact, things change and grow and we are hopefully the better for it. As long as Joss Whedon is around. I will be watching.
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17 April 2004 00:53, by Anonymous
This guy is totally off base and seems like he just automatically hates anything that is popular.
This article was poorly written and seems as if it was written by a man who watched the show off and on and didnt look very deep.
I take this with a grain of salt.
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17 April 2004 01:13, by Anonymous
Finally. Someone had the balls to say the truth. Love Joss, but some of the characters really lost themselves. Giles...Xander...even Buffy herself.
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17 April 2004 03:43, by Karla
I just can’t roll my eyes enough at this stupid article. It’s so ridiculously stupid, so why are fans so crazy and obsessed and completely enraptured with a show that JOSS created?! Why do I laugh and cry and love this characters like I do, if they’re characterization is so bad?? Why has a show about demons, slayers and vampires made seem so real?! Joss obviously did something right, and he’s more than just quips guy geez....What the hell!!Ya he must be bad (me rolling my eyes now). This was his vision, BTVS, ATS, Firefly were all creations of Joss, and were they all brilliant? YES! Whatever this guy seems little bitter, maybe cuz he didn’t create one of the best show(s) on tv to date.
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17 April 2004 06:48, by Rob Logan
Watch "The Body". Then watch "A Hole In The World". Then find a medical team that can remove your head from your rectal cavity. That’s all I’ve got to say.
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17 April 2004 08:29, by Anonymous
I have to say this season of Angel is its worst. I think Joss made the wrong casting decisions (such as dumping Glen Quinn and Charisma) on this show at times. He also has tried to steer the show in a certain direction this season and it hasn’t worked that great. I also wasn’t that happy with Buffy’s last season either, compared with the rest of the show. Were these last seasons bad? Of course not! I love Joss’s work and PRAY he gets a couple more cracks at this Buffyverse thing.
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17 April 2004 09:07, by Anonymous
I think everyone should keep in mind that this "article" was written by someone who also wrote one trashing ’Trading Spaces’ where he admits to NEVER HAVING WATCHED THE SHOW, and has written, in bold, that "I think I’m getting tired of television."
You might also wish to read a few other articles by the same "author". For example...
http://teevee.org/archive/2003/08/28/index.html
... where he blatantly insults the fans of Whedon’s shows.
For other "goodies" by this individual check here...
http://teevee.org/about/monty.html
I think that someone should leave the critiquing to the professionals.
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17 April 2004 09:48, by Emily
Joss Whedon is one of the best storytellers of our generation. Buffy revolutionised tv as we know it. Would it be so critically acclaimed if it all it was doing was incorporating horror-movie plots? Have you even watched the show? If you don’t even understand the plots (i.e. Wolfram and Hart), you can’t possibly understand the complexity and genius behind the shows.
Vampires were introduced as evil at first because Buffy (and the audience) was being introduced to life as the slayer, and she had to realise things weren’t as cut and dry as Good vs Evil. I won’t bother going on about the prophetic arcs not making sense, because I think Lia summed it up nicely.
I think the personalities of his characters vary wildly<<< It’s called character development, you moron. If the characters remained the same for seven years, then I think you would be justified in calling Joss Whedon a terrible writer. Don’t waste your time picking on shows you obviously don’t understand very well.
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17 April 2004 12:35, by me
People shouldn’t get so worked up over this. Some dickhead decides to "re examine" Joss, and it seemed to have got alot of people upset. This person obviously has no idea about what makes a story good, and therefore cannot understand the complex Buffyverse. And so the blame must go to the creator of the shows. Pfft, yeah right.
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17 April 2004 16:07, by angelfan67
I guess his parents never tought him:
If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all.
There are jerks like him, that the execs listen to. and it’s a shame, because they are the minority and don’t know it.
Just a little bit of advise: Just shut your mouth, because I wouldn’t want to be you, if you get found by a mob of Buffy- and Angelfans.
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18 April 2004 01:37, by laur
Does anyone else wanna smack this guy?? Joss Whedon is a friggen GOD!
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18 April 2004 03:00, by Marky
Dear Monty,
There are people whose first experience of "silly sci-fi" was NOT Buffy. They watched the show.
Every TV Show has a gimmick. They’re products. Buffy’s was more appealling to some people than reality TV. So they watched the show.
Good characterisation is built on the observation of people. People change, and so should characters on TV. People watched the show.
I’d like to know why you think the "dream" episode doesn’t tie in to the overall theme of Season 6. I think it worked quite nicely.
As for W&H, I might agree with you except for the fact the show hasn’t finished yet. Maybe you should watch it?
Buffy and Angel aren’t perfect all the time, but when they are, we forgive Whedon for those moments. And moments are all they are.
If you watch Buffy and Angel for what they are, you’ll have a good time. I always do.
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18 April 2004 03:12, by Wolverine68
It is refreshing to see soemone who is not all "Joss rules," Joss is awsome," Joss is the best writter," etc etc etc.
I think you’re right on that Joss is doing nothing original. Most ideas have been done coutless times before, and will be done again. So he changed a few details of our hero. Super strength, been done. Female, been done. (Xena, Supergirl, Wonder Woman.)
Joss reminds me of J.R.R.. Tolkein, he is a good visionary of ideas, but when it coems to the actually writtign it down he falls short of "great."
I’m right there with you one rather watching a story written By Tim Minear. He is probably the best writter ever to grace the Angel team. There is nothing ever done that matches "Have You Now Or Ever Been in creativity." There have been other flashbaclk episode, buyt never a story told through 50+ years. Who else has written 2 episodes of Angel back to back? No one. His Reprise, & Epiphany was the closest to a 2 parter ever seen on Angel.
Joss has come up with some clever ideas leaving them to others to write, or should I say he co-created the idea.
The season 2 premiere ("Judgement") was an idea he had with David Greenwalt, but Greenwalt was left to do the telleplay. And "Smile Time" was another idea he concieved with Ben Edlund. Again the other guy was left to do most of the work. Edlund did the telleplay, and directed.
Then again Joss has done some great episodes on his own. He wrote the finalles for all the seasons of Buffy I believe, 2 & 5 being the finest of the buffy episodes.
I think it’s unfair to judge him, because he has other duties to attend to. He is the ceo of the company, executive producer, & director. As well as at some points working one 2 or 3 shows.
Perhaps if he had the time to work solely on writting he could come up with more creative works. There are also many things I feel he does wrong in the shows he does.
However, I will not concentrate on such negatives, it’s his show, I respect his work. I will just say he’s good at what he does, and enjoy it.
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18 April 2004 09:21, by Goron
Yah, well thats your oppinion, and we dont like it. So go away. I hope u get ur but kicked by a nerd.
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6 May 2004 22:55, by Diorette
Are you a multi-millionare because of a tv show you created? No? Then shut up.
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